Curse

Bright Star Shine · Dec 08, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09

So what's the deal with those anyway? They are completely useless, and even more, completely unfair... When a warrior charges into, let's say a demon mob and goes medieval with Hundred blades, swinging all around, he would do +20% dmg from the mod, perhaps he custo'ed it, so that makes it +40%, 15^50 (assuming he's above 50) makes it +55% and a max LB even cranks it up to +95%, Hell, if he's used a "BuH", he would do +120% damage! Even +125% if he has a 20^50 and is below 50
Now, if a caster applies a Staff wrapping of demon slaying ohmahgawd he can WAND the damn thing to death with his übercool staff!

Now, the point of this article, I think they should change the Staff Wrapping of "<Species>"slaying either to +1337% damage, or actually make it useful and let it affect spells, because this is just another bloody advantage that warriors (and rangers) have been given, from the start of this game.

I know what most will say: "Another +20% damage to species? Umad? That would be imba!"
Perhaps it will be a little imba, because that grants a huge advantage in let's say DoASC (not glaiveway, f*ck that sh*t) or UWSC, or Urgoz (using pruning) or anything you name... But isn't that what those blasted things were made for in the first place? To do more damage? And besides, it would make up for the advantage warriors and rangers have had for the past 5years.. Even if we only had it for a couple of months untill GW2 comes out..

I know it will never happen, but it would make DoASC etc a lot more interesting tbh.. And faster for that matter..

Oh, and on a sidenote, it would make the things actually worth more than 25g..

Olle · Dec 08, 2010, 08:59 PM // 20:59

all i hear is a caster that QQ's that he cant do +20% more damage to some certain specie.
Oh, your'e an ele..
Sorry.
/notsigned.

**Marty Silverblade** · Dec 08, 2010, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

So what's the deal with those anyway? They are completely useless, and even more, completely unfair... When a warrior charges into, let's say a demon mob and goes medieval with Hundred blades, swinging all around, he would do +20% dmg from the mod, perhaps he custo'ed it, so that makes it +40%, 15^50 (assuming he's above 50) makes it +55% and a max LB even cranks it up to +95%, Hell, if he's used a "BuH", he would do +120% damage! Even +125% if he has a 20^50 and is below 50

This is complete rubbish. First off, percentages multiply, not add. Secondly, you're not taking into account where each mod comes into play. The 15^50 (forget 20^50 because that's just whining on your part) and 20% customisation bonus apply to raw weapon damage. 15 (unmodified damage) * 1.15 (15^50) * 1.2 (customisation) = 21 damage. 6 extra damage is not the same thing as multiplying all damage by 35%. You are correct (coincidentally), in saying that BuH will increase damage by 20%. It is a global multiplier, so it would increase damage from raw weapon damage, Orders, SoH, Dragon Slash, etc. AScan does the same. Not sure where LB comes into it.

Quote:

Now, the point of this article, I think they should change the Staff Wrapping of "<Species>"slaying either to +1337% damage, or actually make it useful and let it affect spells, because this is just another bloody advantage that warriors (and rangers) have been given, from the start of this game.

I know what most will say: "Another +20% damage to species? Umad? That would be imba!"
Perhaps it will be a little imba, because that grants a huge advantage in let's say DoASC (not glaiveway, f*ck that sh*t) or UWSC, or Urgoz (using pruning) or anything you name... But isn't that what those blasted things were made for in the first place? To do more damage? And besides, it would make up for the advantage warriors and rangers have had for the past 5years.. Even if we only had it for a couple of months untill GW2 comes out..

*I believe (as in, I've heard this on multiple occasions by people I trust but can't give a source) the game was designed with physicals being the key damage dealers.
*Those 20% mods boost raw weapon damage; they are not global multipliers. Back to the previous example... 15 (unmodified damage) * 1.15 (15^50) * 1.2 (customisation) * 1.2 (slaying mod) = 25 damage. Another 4 points. It's like a better vampiric mod but they're so specific no one really uses them. No one wastes inventory slots or bothers hunting down slaying mods for a ton of different weapons.
*Any profession that desperately needs this (you play an Ele, it seems) needs a rework because they are not designed for dealing lots of damage in high end PvE.

For future references, when making suggestions, stop whining and maybe people will take you more seriously.

Kronk_Shaan · Dec 08, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Well, as Anet is openly against 'elite areas' being farmed (sc'd) quickly, hence the whole UW change (I know, quote, source needed), I doubt they will embrace changing weapon mods to help people farm faster.

I can see possibly adding a mod that is maybe +5% (at most) to recharge time or casting time, but those can break some of the skill balance changes that have been made in the past (more splits on the horizon?). And then, I wouldn't really see much use in that until they make some GW2 changes take place in GW1. Oh no, you're a caster...no shield (spear) for you. And yes, my primary is a caster (monk).

/signed...only if they take away/restrict weapon use for classes like GW2 will have.
Otherwise...
/not signed

jazilla · Dec 08, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

why not just change the staff wraps of X-Bane to a 10% spell damage modifier to the species the wrap effects? You would be sacrificing a +30 or 20% enchanting wrap etc. to get the boost and it would actually make getting a staff wrap of pruning or demonslaying worth it. Not to mention the fact that DwG wouldn't be affected by this because it's a bundle item so you aren't making that DoA speed clear any better. It would make the Dwarf Slaying wraps priceless for Duncan as well.

Bright Star Shine · Dec 08, 2010, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

*I believe (as in, I've heard this on multiple occasions by people I trust but can't give a source) the game was designed with physicals being the key damage dealers.
*Any profession that desperately needs this (you play an Ele, it seems) needs a rework because they are not designed for dealing lots of damage in high end PvE.
For future references, when making suggestions, stop whining and maybe people will take you more seriously.

Ok so if physicals were to be the main damage dealers (first of, LOL) why was the game originally designed with 2 of them, being a Warrior and Ranger? Were the other 3 (monk being healer) just ment as decoration? And on the ranger part, they only got strong when rit was introduced, so they were fairly useless besides traps and spirit support at the start..
And @ the (2 times) "Oh you're an ele", ffs, you all got 1 charr? Friggin morons, my ele is my main, but rarely play on her lately, all i use her for is Bond shit (YES! that is what "the great nukers" from the past are reduced to, little bitches standing at the backline, bonding the assassin tanks when asked -I've already said this in multiple threads)
@SC being semi-boycotted by Anet, yes, but the UW nerf HAD to be done (7min runs? you could get a 10 with a PUG) I don't see em nerf DoA or Urgoz (where i did an 11min run like a week ago) they only nerf those that drastically need one, because they are imbalancing the game..
And still, even if the Sword thing is only multiplying the raw damage, with a good build he could pull that off pretty nicely
(oh and speaking math fyi +20% = x1,2) My math might not have been completely correct, and my assumage of the multiplier doing overall damage was wrong, but they could still make something useful with these things, which would make tracking them down useful and worthwhile.. Because lately tracking anything down seems rather useless and not worthwhile (thank NF and Eotn for that) since you can get anything r9 perfect on a dinnerplate for less than 10k, except for the rare skins..

Oh, and DwG is still NOT a speedclear... Speedclears are things that go FAST.. Doing something in 1h30, NM which you can do in 40mins, HM isn't to be labeled fast... (I'm speaking average runs now, I am fully aware of records, but you don't do records on a daily basis..)

**Marty Silverblade** · Dec 08, 2010, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Ok so if physicals were to be the main damage dealers (first of, LOL) why was the game originally designed with 2 of them, being a Warrior and Ranger? Were the other 3 (monk being healer) just ment as decoration? And on the ranger part, they only got strong when rit was introduced, so they were fairly useless besides traps and spirit support at the start..

1) What is wrong with physicals being the main damage dealers? Just because GW doesn't follow the 'omg nuke nuke nuke' stereotype for casters doesn't mean it's wrong. What you want/expect =/= what's good for the game.
2) The game was implemented with 1 melee and 1 ranged physical because that's what was needed. Warriors have not been buffed and nerfed all that much PvP wise, and are not part of gimmick builds. Thats because they are well designed and balanced.
3) There is more to the game than pure damage. I would explain this to you, but you clearly don't really want to see this.

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And still, even if the Sword thing is only multiplying the raw damage, with a good build he could pull that off pretty nicely (oh and speaking math fyi +20% = x1,2)

Uh, I did multiply by 1.2. Did you not bother to read my post properly?

Quote:

My math might not have been completely correct, and my assumage of the multiplier doing overall damage was wrong, but they could still make something useful with these things, which would make tracking them down useful and worthwhile.. Because lately tracking anything down seems rather useless and not worthwhile (thank NF and Eotn for that) since you can get anything r9 perfect on a dinnerplate for less than 10k, except for the rare skins..

As I explained in my previous post, the extra damage is there, but there still isn't a big market for slaying mods. This is because people don't want to have to keep lots of swords with different slaying mods and switch when necessary. That, and it's not a +30 health mod which people assume must be the best thing to use.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 08, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

There are +15% damage -10 armor when attacking daggers too. No need to get angry over useless things, just don't use them

MisterB · Dec 08, 2010, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Slaying mods have no effect on the damage from Hundred Blades.

Slaying mods on staffs have no use. The best thing would be to remove them so other mods take their place when the items are generated.

Cool Name · Dec 08, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Not entirely on topic but I think saying Eles weren't meant to be the main damage dealers is incorrect. Without HM when GW first came out eles were very effective. Especially before all of the mob scatter nerfing (which was of course needed) their AoE damage output was not beatable by a warrior, in my opinion. If they weren't meant to deal damage then what were they meant to do? Earth had some wards and water hand some snares but apart from that I think pretty much every other skill was meant to deal damage.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 09, 2010, 12:05 AM // 00:05

In the early days of GW, eles were the main damage dealers because people didn't understand the game.

Warriors didn't slap on Power Attack and Warrior's Endurance, they used Defy Pain and Endure Pain. GG tanking ftw!

Similarly, Mark of Pain, Orders, Barbs etc were there for people to use. Echo-MSing was just simpler.

Air magic has a lot of condition support (blind, weakness, cracked armor, kd, daze), in a very warrior-hate kind of way. The only "pure damage" line is Fire Magic. 1 attribute out of 5, I wouldn't call that a pure DPS class. Heck, monks have Smiting Prayers too! (though it's much easier to see monks aren't pure DPS, isn't it)

Warriors, on the other hand, are very DPS-like. Sure, they have some utility too, such as the kds in the hammer line, but they all have a "You Are About To Die" feeling to it, unlike the ele versions (Gale, Whirlwind, Blinding Surge, Water Trident...)

Bright Star Shine · Dec 09, 2010, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

1) What is wrong with physicals being the main damage dealers? Just because GW doesn't follow the 'omg nuke nuke nuke' stereotype for casters doesn't mean it's wrong. What you want/expect =/= what's good for the game.

Never said there was anything wrong with it, I've done my fair part of "Jump in, hit hundred blades, swing ya sword, GG" because it's effective. Warrior needed a buff in PvE because everything was done by caster classes (Mes/N nukers, Ele bonders, Monk healer, Ssin/ele tanks), so now at least they can blast sit to oblivion as well...

Quote:

2) The game was implemented with 1 melee and 1 ranged physical because that's what was needed. Warriors have not been buffed and nerfed all that much PvP wise, and are not part of gimmick builds. Thats because they are well designed and balanced.

Yes they are balanced, yes they are very useful in PvP but this wasn't my point at all actually, so not gonna do anything with this.

Quote:

3) There is more to the game than pure damage. I would explain this to you, but you clearly don't really want to see this.

What? You don't just have to run in going LEEEERRROOOOOOY and spam your skills? Wow, I missed something in the past 5y...
Try explaining the hardcore DoASC'er that tactics and such isn't a part of this game at all, that's gonna be hard..

Quote:

Uh, I did multiply by 1.2. Did you not bother to read my post properly?

Euh, YES you did, I did read your post, but as I recall correctly, you said something like "Damage multipliers multiply, they don't add up" So my point again: Adding up with percent or multiplying by 1,xx is still the same thing..

Quote:

As I explained in my previous post, the extra damage is there, but there still isn't a big market for slaying mods. This is because people don't want to have to keep lots of swords with different slaying mods and switch when necessary. That, and it's not a +30 health mod which people assume must be the best thing to use.

Again, my big point from this article: There should be a point having different swords with different slaying mods. That would make them useful, instead of being "Meh" and be thrown away..

Oh, and I forgot to answer this in my previous post, LB adds overall damage, 5% per rank. So at r8 you do +40% damage, usually throwing in a BuH makes it even more, depending on your damage.

Although, after giving it some thought, I do have to revise my theory (you were right).. Because, being the hardcore DoASC'er I am, my favorite roll still is Esurge recall, meaning I hit things with Esurge which would do a 99 base damage, but with r8 LB, it makes it 139 (99x1,4 = 138,6) and when you hit a BuH you get 174 (139x1,25 = 173,75) whilst 99x1,65 = 163. It makes sense though, but it never occurred to me.

newbie_of_doom · Dec 09, 2010, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Euh, YES you did, I did read your post, but as I recall correctly, you said something like "Damage multipliers multiply, they don't add up" So my point again: Adding up with percent or multiplying by 1,xx is still the same thing..

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Oh, and I forgot to answer this in my previous post, LB adds overall damage, 5% per rank. So at r8 you do +40% damage, usually throwing in a BuH makes it even more, depending on your damage.

Although, after giving it some thought, I do have to revise my theory (you were right).. Because, being the hardcore DoASC'er I am, my favorite roll still is Esurge recall, meaning I hit things with Esurge which would do a 99 base damage, but with r8 LB, it makes it 139 (99x1,4 = 138,6) and when you hit a BuH you get 174 (139x1,25 = 173,75) whilst 99x1,65 = 163. It makes sense though, but it never occurred to me.

No. While I do believe that LB does effect spells, I know for a fact your math is wrong.
While 140%+25% is indeed 1.65 this is not at all how you calculate this. What you get is 140% damage which is increased by 25%. Resulting in a total damage of 1.4*1.25 = 1.75. (which is obviously not 1.65)

Seriously though, you are dead wrong Bright Star Shine. Your calculations are absolutely terrible. Also, I believe the mod only works on raw weapon damage, so it wouldn't effect HB just as it doesnt effect spells.
Please, for the love of sanity, before you get on your high horse and start ranting about something. Inform yourself, and if someone tells you are wrong, explaining it solidly, listen.
Thank you...

Also, this thread has gone way of topic. We are not discussing wether warriors or elementalist (should) deal more damage than warriors or not.

On a side note, when calculating things in English use the dot for decimal procedures.

Bright Star Shine · Dec 09, 2010, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Dude, I just said, IN THE QUOTE YOU QUOTED that he was right on the calculations about the damage multiplier... Read it again ffs.. I do the exact same thing you say there, I even give a goddamn example..
I admit it that freaking post that my math sucked and was totally off what more do you expect?
And yes we are going offtopic, my original assumption was wrong, but the idea isn't therefor wrong, the damage multipliers SHOULD actually multiply damage imo, that also means cranking up those from the warriors.. It would actually be a great advantage and give a use to the bloody things...
Perhaps we could discuss that instead of pointing to my math AGAIN after I admitted it was wrong..

**Marty Silverblade** · Dec 09, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Never said there was anything wrong with it, I've done my fair part of "Jump in, hit hundred blades, swing ya sword, GG" because it's effective. Warrior needed a buff in PvE because everything was done by caster classes (Mes/N nukers, Ele bonders, Monk healer, Ssin/ele tanks), so now at least they can blast sit to oblivion as well...

False. I remember a fair while back SMS (and possibly other guilds) used to beat DoA in HM without cons with physway. Melee have always been powerful. Their strength is in stacking buffs and producing a lot of damage packets. Hundred Blades is not necessary to do this.

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Yes they are balanced, yes they are very useful in PvP but this wasn't my point at all actually, so not gonna do anything with this.

My point was that your 'if the physicals are for dealing damage why are there only two OMG YOU MUST BE WRONG!' is false.

Quote:

What? You don't just have to run in going LEEEERRROOOOOOY and spam your skills? Wow, I missed something in the past 5y...
Try explaining the hardcore DoASC'er that tactics and such isn't a part of this game at all, that's gonna be hard..

I thought it was obvious there was more to the game than just pure damage. You need people to heal, which makes those professions not (using your words), 'ment for decoration'. You need utility, which makes midline professions not just for decoration, etc. Why do people use Panic rather than ESurge on Mesmers? Because pure damage is not nearly as effective as dealing damage intelligently (cleaning melees so they can deal damage, protecting the team so they can do their jobs, throwing interrupts on the midline so there is less need for dedicated backline slots, etc).

Quote:

Euh, YES you did, I did read your post, but as I recall correctly, you said something like "Damage multipliers multiply, they don't add up" So my point again: Adding up with percent or multiplying by 1,xx is still the same thing..

False. Don't lecture me on math/game mechanics when you clearly don't know what you're talking about. a * b * c =/= a * (b + c). The previous example with all the mods:

15 (unmodified damage) * 1.15 (15^50) * 1.2 (customisation) * 1.2 (slaying mod) = 25 damage

15 (unmodified damage) * (1.55) = 23 damage

Quote:

Again, my big point from this article: There should be a point having different swords with different slaying mods. That would make them useful, instead of being "Meh" and be thrown away..

There is a point; I've shown that already. They produce more damage than vamp mods. However, no one bothers because they are specific and don't want to bother with a ton of weapons.

Quote:

Oh, and I forgot to answer this in my previous post, LB adds overall damage, 5% per rank. So at r8 you do +40% damage, usually throwing in a BuH makes it even more, depending on your damage.

Ok. The discussion on the wiki page gives me the impression it's a global modifier, or at least acts similarly enough to one. I don't see the point of discussing this though as both melee and casters can use BuH and the LB bonus. In fact, speedclears aside, melees don't usually have room for BuH.

Quote:

Although, after giving it some thought, I do have to revise my theory (you were right).. Because, being the hardcore DoASC'er I am, my favorite roll still is Esurge recall, meaning I hit things with Esurge which would do a 99 base damage, but with r8 LB, it makes it 139 (99x1,4 = 138,6) and when you hit a BuH you get 174 (139x1,25 = 173,75) whilst 99x1,65 = 163. It makes sense though, but it never occurred to me.

Ok, good.

jazilla · Dec 09, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

15 (unmodified damage) * 1.15 (15^50) * 1.2 (customisation) * 1.2 (slaying mod) = 25 damage

15 (unmodified damage) * (1.55) = 23 damage

Nope. It's not 15 (unmodified damage) * (1.55) = 23 damage. It's 15 (unmodified damage) * (1.15) = 23 damage. Your damages were not equal in both equations on your post.

**Marty Silverblade** · Dec 09, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

Nope. It's not 15 (unmodified damage) * (1.55) = 23 damage. It's 15 (unmodified damage) * (1.15) = 23 damage. Your damages were not equal in both equations on your post.

Huh? The point was to show the damage isn't equal. It was an example of the fact that 15 * (the sum of the mods) is not equal to 15 * each mod multiplied individually.

Bright Star Shine · Dec 09, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

I thought it was obvious there was more to the game than just pure damage. You need people to heal, which makes those professions not (using your words), 'ment for decoration'. You need utility, which makes midline professions not just for decoration, etc. Why do people use Panic rather than ESurge on Mesmers? Because pure damage is not nearly as effective as dealing damage intelligently (cleaning melees so they can deal damage, protecting the team so they can do their jobs, throwing interrupts on the midline so there is less need for dedicated backline slots, etc).

Guess you missed my sarcasm there...

Quote:

False. Don't lecture me on math/game mechanics when you clearly don't know what you're talking about. a * b * c =/= a * (b + c). The previous example with all the mods:

15 (unmodified damage) * 1.15 (15^50) * 1.2 (customisation) * 1.2 (slaying mod) = 25 damage

15 (unmodified damage) * (1.55) = 23 damage

Ok, seriously? Howmany times do I have to say you were right? My point all those posts back was that you implied that +20% =/= *1,2 yet it does.. I also stated that in multiple cases, in the game mechanics GW uses I came to the conclusion that INDEED they multiply and do not add up (see 1 line up)..

So, can we get back at the "Would it be a good idea to make them work as I implied 5 times over" instead of continuously pointing at what I did wrong.. Like I asked already two times?

newbie_of_doom · Dec 10, 2010, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Dude, I just said, IN THE QUOTE YOU QUOTED that he was right on the calculations about the damage multiplier... Read it again ffs.. I do the exact same thing you say there, I even give a goddamn example..
I admit it that freaking post that my math sucked and was totally off what more do you expect?
And yes we are going offtopic, my original assumption was wrong, but the idea isn't therefor wrong, the damage multipliers SHOULD actually multiply damage imo, that also means cranking up those from the warriors.. It would actually be a great advantage and give a use to the bloody things...
Perhaps we could discuss that instead of pointing to my math AGAIN after I admitted it was wrong..

No, you didn't. You think you did, I explained you didn't. Our calculations are essentially different: mine is correct and yours is wrong.
Stop using curse words and acting like we are the stupid ones, you are making yourself look even more stupid. You could have asked for calculations or just stated that what you think should happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Guess you missed my sarcasm there...

Ok, seriously? Howmany times do I have to say you were right? My point all those posts back was that you implied that +20% =/= *1,2 yet it does.. I also stated that in multiple cases, in the game mechanics GW uses I came to the conclusion that INDEED they multiply and do not add up (see 1 line up)..

So, can we get back at the "Would it be a good idea to make them work as I implied 5 times over" instead of continuously pointing at what I did wrong.. Like I asked already two times?

As I have tried to get through your thick skull you have said that you were wrong but you seem to think you were not.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not nagging on because I want to sincerely admit that you were wrong. It is for the sake of your own thread. We are once more amazingly off-topic, this time discussing your lack of merit.

So, let's get back on topic. It makes absolutely no sense to make it so that elementalist will be using 15^50 or 20^species mods because their spell damage is increased, therefore it should not happen. End of story.

Bright Star Shine · Dec 10, 2010, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom

No, you didn't. You think you did, I explained you didn't. Our calculations are essentially different: mine is correct and yours is wrong.
Stop using curse words and acting like we are the stupid ones, you are making yourself look even more stupid. You could have asked for calculations or just stated that what you think should happen.

Ok, now, I am going to write the exact same thing as I did two or three posts ago... Since you are obviously too lazy and thick-headed yourself to read the bottom part of that certain post again...
As recall does armor ignoring damage, it should do 99 damage with the attributes I have.. Because I am r8 LB, you have to add 40% damage, i.e, multiply by 1,4 = 139 damage (hope you're still with me..) now, if my original theory would have been correct (which i stated in that post that it wasn't), I simply would've added another 25% from that 99 i.e, multiplying that 99 simply by 1,65, which would grant 163 damage, BUT, from experience I know that I actually do 174 damage, thus my theory was wrong, but I simply had to multiply the given 139 by 1,25. Giving me 174 (rounded up) In total that would be the same as doing 99.1,75. Which makes total sense, but something I didn't think about that much tbh...
Now, please do tell me, am I contradicting you in this calculation, or am I not? Seriously.. Now compare this to the post above, think 2 seconds and please don't say I'm wrong anymore...

I don't care this is off-topic, I actually stopped caring about this topic, so for the sake of all of us, please do close it...
(And, as you noted I did my very best not to curse anymore, and I succeeded pretty well if I can say so myself..)